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	<title>Comments on: Guest Column: How To Kill Off A Sense Of Wonder</title>
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	<description>From Modern Mythcraft to Magical Surrealism</description>
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		<title>By: Once upon a mellow noon &#187; What do I like in Urban Fantasy?</title>
		<link>http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/2008/04/how-to-kill-off-a-sense-of-wonder/comment-page-2/#comment-1651</link>
		<dc:creator>Once upon a mellow noon &#187; What do I like in Urban Fantasy?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 May 2008 22:48:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darkfantasy.org/fantasy/?p=521#comment-1651</guid>
		<description>[...] to go about helping them to give me that . . .I can&#8217;t help them with. Vera Nazarian mentioned two more things that I like in her essay for Fantasy magazine (my interpretation, not her exact words): 1) Too fast-paced - a negative, but it leads into the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] to go about helping them to give me that . . .I can&#8217;t help them with. Vera Nazarian mentioned two more things that I like in her essay for Fantasy magazine (my interpretation, not her exact words): 1) Too fast-paced &#8211; a negative, but it leads into the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Twitter leads me to what&#8217;s wrong with Urban Fanatsy</title>
		<link>http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/2008/04/how-to-kill-off-a-sense-of-wonder/comment-page-2/#comment-1306</link>
		<dc:creator>Twitter leads me to what&#8217;s wrong with Urban Fanatsy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 20:41:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darkfantasy.org/fantasy/?p=521#comment-1306</guid>
		<description>[...] popped up by Paul Jessup. That led me to his twitter, which led me to his website, which led me to an article on what&#8217;s wrong with Urban Fantasy these days. (read the comments too..they are [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] popped up by Paul Jessup. That led me to his twitter, which led me to his website, which led me to an article on what&#8217;s wrong with Urban Fantasy these days. (read the comments too..they are [...]</p>
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		<title>By: fritz freiheit.com » Links from last week (through 2008/03/18)</title>
		<link>http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/2008/04/how-to-kill-off-a-sense-of-wonder/comment-page-2/#comment-1299</link>
		<dc:creator>fritz freiheit.com » Links from last week (through 2008/03/18)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2008 20:41:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darkfantasy.org/fantasy/?p=521#comment-1299</guid>
		<description>[...] Fantasy Magazine » How To Kill Off A Sense Of Wonder (Writing,Fantasy,SF) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Fantasy Magazine » How To Kill Off A Sense Of Wonder (Writing,Fantasy,SF) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Gordon</title>
		<link>http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/2008/04/how-to-kill-off-a-sense-of-wonder/comment-page-2/#comment-1298</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Gordon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2008 18:42:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darkfantasy.org/fantasy/?p=521#comment-1298</guid>
		<description>Ok, I see where the interpretations diverged.  I was reading the &quot;ought&quot; phrase as applying to &quot;fantastic&quot; creatures and events, which in the context of much of the UF genre are indeed commonplace (I know, the oxymoronic nature boggles the mind), but if you are instead saying that the feeling of wonder itself needs to be stronger then I understand, even though for myself I settle happily for half-assed wonder if the rest of the book is good.

And by the way, the word ought ought to be used more often now that we are living in the oughties (or is it noughties?)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok, I see where the interpretations diverged.  I was reading the &#8220;ought&#8221; phrase as applying to &#8220;fantastic&#8221; creatures and events, which in the context of much of the UF genre are indeed commonplace (I know, the oxymoronic nature boggles the mind), but if you are instead saying that the feeling of wonder itself needs to be stronger then I understand, even though for myself I settle happily for half-assed wonder if the rest of the book is good.</p>
<p>And by the way, the word ought ought to be used more often now that we are living in the oughties (or is it noughties?)</p>
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		<title>By: Carole McDonnell</title>
		<link>http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/2008/04/how-to-kill-off-a-sense-of-wonder/comment-page-2/#comment-1286</link>
		<dc:creator>Carole McDonnell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Apr 2008 12:17:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darkfantasy.org/fantasy/?p=521#comment-1286</guid>
		<description>Great article. I don&#039;t mind the breakthrough of the numinous or supernatural into common life...that kinda stuff happens often enough and everyone has a weird personal story.  But you are soooo right about the reaction of the main characters to these events. What I don&#039;t like is the lack of a ring of truth. When people face something supernatual, they don&#039;t get into kissattidunial mode. IT just doesn&#039;t ring true that there is no fear, or wonder, or dang! even giggles...something extreme that shows some emotion has been touched by this paranormal event. -C</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great article. I don&#8217;t mind the breakthrough of the numinous or supernatural into common life&#8230;that kinda stuff happens often enough and everyone has a weird personal story.  But you are soooo right about the reaction of the main characters to these events. What I don&#8217;t like is the lack of a ring of truth. When people face something supernatual, they don&#8217;t get into kissattidunial mode. IT just doesn&#8217;t ring true that there is no fear, or wonder, or dang! even giggles&#8230;something extreme that shows some emotion has been touched by this paranormal event. -C</p>
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		<title>By: Vera Nazarian</title>
		<link>http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/2008/04/how-to-kill-off-a-sense-of-wonder/comment-page-2/#comment-1284</link>
		<dc:creator>Vera Nazarian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Apr 2008 00:39:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darkfantasy.org/fantasy/?p=521#comment-1284</guid>
		<description>Michael Gordon,

&lt;i&gt;
Vera wrote &quot;instead of making it a truly life-shaking event as it ought to be...&quot;

While I don&#039;t think anyone else has pointed to this phrasing as troubling, I can&#039;t help but feel that it lies at the root of the problem. 
&lt;/i&gt;

Thanks for bringing this up. 

In fact a number of people have been bothered by my usage of &quot;ought&quot; because how dare I imply that things ought to be one way or another?  (Or is it that they dislike stodgy vocabulary?)  

When I say that sense of wonder should be &quot;a truly life-shaking event as it ought to be&quot; is somewhat like saying &quot;I wish water was wet as it ought to be.&quot;  Because a great portion of what makes up wonder is a sense of the life-shaking and momentous.  Without such, it will not be wonder but something else altogether.  Even &quot;quiet&quot; wonder requires a heightening of awe and a profound moment of insight, and an internal explosion of meaning sinking in.

On the other hand, if people are not reading what is actually said but skimming with prejudice and extrapolating wildly, they are likely to assume I am implying that something else &quot;ought to be&quot; a certain way or another (and hence the &quot;how dare you&quot; conclusion and righteous indignation follows).  Well, I am not referring to anything else here in that sentence (while this essay is about a number of points, this sentence is only about one). There is no proper logic that will immediately imply that oh, she is bemoaning the lack of sense of wonder, so necessarily she expects to have a sense of wonder every time she reads (I do not, I often read books for other reasons).  

&lt;i&gt;
I dislike chick lit, depressing memoirs, social-experimenting speculative fiction, and a number of other genres, but I don&#039;t don&#039;t presume to know how they ought to be written. If a book immediately raises red flags on page one (as in Vera&#039;s example) then perhaps that&#039;s for the best. If the author&#039;s handling of the subject matter displeases you from the get-go, put it down, step away, find a better book.
&lt;/i&gt; 

Personally I am with you, I dislike most of such books too (but always with exceptions for the truly well done).  And that particular book with the fairy that I mentioned in the essay -- I did indeed put it down and never made it past page one, and instead wrote the essay (and no, it is not DEAD WITCH WALKING and not anything else by Kim Harrison whose work I enjoy).  

Let me reiterate here that I enjoy a whole lot of urban paranormal and urban fantasy in general (even though it&#039;s not my favorite flavor of genre, I prefer &quot;otherworld&quot; fantasy), but there are times when a book one picks up is &quot;stillborn&quot; -- it is lifeless from the first page on, which may not be the case for someone else picking up that very same book.

Thanks for raising valid discussion points, Michael.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael Gordon,</p>
<p><i><br />
Vera wrote &#8220;instead of making it a truly life-shaking event as it ought to be&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>While I don&#8217;t think anyone else has pointed to this phrasing as troubling, I can&#8217;t help but feel that it lies at the root of the problem.<br />
</i></p>
<p>Thanks for bringing this up. </p>
<p>In fact a number of people have been bothered by my usage of &#8220;ought&#8221; because how dare I imply that things ought to be one way or another?  (Or is it that they dislike stodgy vocabulary?)  </p>
<p>When I say that sense of wonder should be &#8220;a truly life-shaking event as it ought to be&#8221; is somewhat like saying &#8220;I wish water was wet as it ought to be.&#8221;  Because a great portion of what makes up wonder is a sense of the life-shaking and momentous.  Without such, it will not be wonder but something else altogether.  Even &#8220;quiet&#8221; wonder requires a heightening of awe and a profound moment of insight, and an internal explosion of meaning sinking in.</p>
<p>On the other hand, if people are not reading what is actually said but skimming with prejudice and extrapolating wildly, they are likely to assume I am implying that something else &#8220;ought to be&#8221; a certain way or another (and hence the &#8220;how dare you&#8221; conclusion and righteous indignation follows).  Well, I am not referring to anything else here in that sentence (while this essay is about a number of points, this sentence is only about one). There is no proper logic that will immediately imply that oh, she is bemoaning the lack of sense of wonder, so necessarily she expects to have a sense of wonder every time she reads (I do not, I often read books for other reasons).  </p>
<p><i><br />
I dislike chick lit, depressing memoirs, social-experimenting speculative fiction, and a number of other genres, but I don&#8217;t don&#8217;t presume to know how they ought to be written. If a book immediately raises red flags on page one (as in Vera&#8217;s example) then perhaps that&#8217;s for the best. If the author&#8217;s handling of the subject matter displeases you from the get-go, put it down, step away, find a better book.<br />
</i> </p>
<p>Personally I am with you, I dislike most of such books too (but always with exceptions for the truly well done).  And that particular book with the fairy that I mentioned in the essay &#8212; I did indeed put it down and never made it past page one, and instead wrote the essay (and no, it is not DEAD WITCH WALKING and not anything else by Kim Harrison whose work I enjoy).  </p>
<p>Let me reiterate here that I enjoy a whole lot of urban paranormal and urban fantasy in general (even though it&#8217;s not my favorite flavor of genre, I prefer &#8220;otherworld&#8221; fantasy), but there are times when a book one picks up is &#8220;stillborn&#8221; &#8212; it is lifeless from the first page on, which may not be the case for someone else picking up that very same book.</p>
<p>Thanks for raising valid discussion points, Michael.</p>
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		<title>By: Artifacts&#187;Blog Archive &#187; Sense of Wonder</title>
		<link>http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/2008/04/how-to-kill-off-a-sense-of-wonder/comment-page-2/#comment-1274</link>
		<dc:creator>Artifacts&#187;Blog Archive &#187; Sense of Wonder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Apr 2008 00:36:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darkfantasy.org/fantasy/?p=521#comment-1274</guid>
		<description>[...] Nazarain has posted an interesting essay at Fantasy magazine about how popular, formula-driven urban/paranormal fantasy (in the mode of [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Nazarain has posted an interesting essay at Fantasy magazine about how popular, formula-driven urban/paranormal fantasy (in the mode of [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jerry Bryson</title>
		<link>http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/2008/04/how-to-kill-off-a-sense-of-wonder/comment-page-2/#comment-1272</link>
		<dc:creator>Jerry Bryson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Apr 2008 18:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darkfantasy.org/fantasy/?p=521#comment-1272</guid>
		<description>I wonder, though, how much of this is due to writers and how much to others up the food chain--agents, editors, publishers, marketers, and the buyers at B&amp;N and Wallmart? The blurbs inside the book jackets panegyrize fast pacing, promising that to the reader; sense of wonder, not so much.

In writing, I feel obliged to obsess about pacing when, doggone it, I want to look at the scenery. I want to inspect the strange car, the airplane, the B&amp;B that always has the exact number of rooms for the current guest roster. I want to revel in the scene as my mundane POV learns to conjure butterflies and fairies. Instead, I write in apprehension of being passed over by an agent or editor for slow pacing. (But she did the butterflies anyway.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder, though, how much of this is due to writers and how much to others up the food chain&#8211;agents, editors, publishers, marketers, and the buyers at B&amp;N and Wallmart? The blurbs inside the book jackets panegyrize fast pacing, promising that to the reader; sense of wonder, not so much.</p>
<p>In writing, I feel obliged to obsess about pacing when, doggone it, I want to look at the scenery. I want to inspect the strange car, the airplane, the B&amp;B that always has the exact number of rooms for the current guest roster. I want to revel in the scene as my mundane POV learns to conjure butterflies and fairies. Instead, I write in apprehension of being passed over by an agent or editor for slow pacing. (But she did the butterflies anyway.)</p>
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		<title>By: David Moles</title>
		<link>http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/2008/04/how-to-kill-off-a-sense-of-wonder/comment-page-2/#comment-1271</link>
		<dc:creator>David Moles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Apr 2008 18:13:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darkfantasy.org/fantasy/?p=521#comment-1271</guid>
		<description>All&#039;s well that ends well!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All&#8217;s well that ends well!</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Jessup</title>
		<link>http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/2008/04/how-to-kill-off-a-sense-of-wonder/comment-page-2/#comment-1269</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Jessup</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Apr 2008 17:16:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darkfantasy.org/fantasy/?p=521#comment-1269</guid>
		<description>&quot;What I’m objecting to isn’t the complaint that X handled Y badly, it’s the complaint that X went for Y when he/she should have gone for Z.&quot;

Yes, we are very much in agreement- I must&#039;ve misunderstood what you had originally said!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;What I’m objecting to isn’t the complaint that X handled Y badly, it’s the complaint that X went for Y when he/she should have gone for Z.&#8221;</p>
<p>Yes, we are very much in agreement- I must&#8217;ve misunderstood what you had originally said!</p>
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