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	<title>Comments on: In A Teapot: A Mist of Vague Cliches</title>
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	<description>From Modern Mythcraft to Magical Surrealism</description>
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		<title>By: J M McDermott</title>
		<link>http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/2008/05/specificity-is-key/comment-page-1/#comment-1673</link>
		<dc:creator>J M McDermott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 May 2008 17:15:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darkfantasy.org/fantasy/?p=548#comment-1673</guid>
		<description>For the antithesis of McEurope, I suggest investigating the work of Canadian author Guy Gavriel Kay, if you haven&#039;t already.

The Lions of Al-Rassan, my favorite of his, re-imagines the Spanish conquest of Spain in a way that clearly demonstrates the shape that material reality gave to cultural reality.

I would also suggest that a similar McUrban exists in Urban Fantasy/paranormal romance novels. 

Also, there&#039;s a McSpace somewhere in the Anime-factories of Japan...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For the antithesis of McEurope, I suggest investigating the work of Canadian author Guy Gavriel Kay, if you haven&#8217;t already.</p>
<p>The Lions of Al-Rassan, my favorite of his, re-imagines the Spanish conquest of Spain in a way that clearly demonstrates the shape that material reality gave to cultural reality.</p>
<p>I would also suggest that a similar McUrban exists in Urban Fantasy/paranormal romance novels. </p>
<p>Also, there&#8217;s a McSpace somewhere in the Anime-factories of Japan&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Clint Harris</title>
		<link>http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/2008/05/specificity-is-key/comment-page-1/#comment-1636</link>
		<dc:creator>Clint Harris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 22:23:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darkfantasy.org/fantasy/?p=548#comment-1636</guid>
		<description>One of the things that bugs me about McEurope fantasy is the use of accents and certain dialects.  It&#039;s nearly always RenSpeake, with hawkers &quot;m&#039;lord&quot; and &quot;m&#039;lady&quot;ing everything to death.  Also, the use of the epithet &quot;bloody&quot; used for everything.  

That&#039;s a reason I&#039;m liking the GRRM stuff lately.  He&#039;s not afraid to use the F word.  He adheres to a lot of the furniture of the middle ages, such as chivalry, platemail, tourneys, etc. But he does it with apparent research and know-how.  In other words, he didn&#039;t just go to a RenFaire and crib his notes from the pickle vendor.

I&#039;m also a fan of Robert E. Howard, whose sword and sorcery was more akin to the Elegies or icelandic sagas than flittering faeries and grandiose castles.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the things that bugs me about McEurope fantasy is the use of accents and certain dialects.  It&#8217;s nearly always RenSpeake, with hawkers &#8220;m&#8217;lord&#8221; and &#8220;m&#8217;lady&#8221;ing everything to death.  Also, the use of the epithet &#8220;bloody&#8221; used for everything.  </p>
<p>That&#8217;s a reason I&#8217;m liking the GRRM stuff lately.  He&#8217;s not afraid to use the F word.  He adheres to a lot of the furniture of the middle ages, such as chivalry, platemail, tourneys, etc. But he does it with apparent research and know-how.  In other words, he didn&#8217;t just go to a RenFaire and crib his notes from the pickle vendor.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m also a fan of Robert E. Howard, whose sword and sorcery was more akin to the Elegies or icelandic sagas than flittering faeries and grandiose castles.</p>
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		<title>By: Stace</title>
		<link>http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/2008/05/specificity-is-key/comment-page-1/#comment-1634</link>
		<dc:creator>Stace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 22:17:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darkfantasy.org/fantasy/?p=548#comment-1634</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Tempest. I don&#039;t expect everyone to be a teacher, but it never hurts to ask!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Tempest. I don&#8217;t expect everyone to be a teacher, but it never hurts to ask!</p>
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		<title>By: K. Tempest Bradford</title>
		<link>http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/2008/05/specificity-is-key/comment-page-1/#comment-1618</link>
		<dc:creator>K. Tempest Bradford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 02:20:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darkfantasy.org/fantasy/?p=548#comment-1618</guid>
		<description>Oh good lord, everyone stop calling me Ms. Bradford, I feel like my mother is on the thread or something ;)  Tempest is just fine.

Stace, I didn&#039;t specifically answer your final paragraph because I thought I had done so in the first paragraph of my response.  Apparently this wasn&#039;t enough!    

I don&#039;t feel I&#039;m particularly qualified to teach a master class in how to put specificity in one&#039;s fiction without being infodumpy.  What I do is what I suggested -- I went to workshops, I joined a writing group, I read and read and read and took note when I saw an author doing something particularly cool and tried to poke at the seams of how they built a world so well I hardly noticed the building.  I hope that my efforts result in being able to build specific worlds without the infodump.

There isn&#039;t just one way to do this.  There are lot of different ways.  So if you want to learn, you have to work it out yourself or get some excellent writing teachers to help you or get a writing group that can help you.  I can&#039;t, in a comment, tell you how to do it because there is no one way.  Each story or novel requires its own way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh good lord, everyone stop calling me Ms. Bradford, I feel like my mother is on the thread or something <img src='http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' />   Tempest is just fine.</p>
<p>Stace, I didn&#8217;t specifically answer your final paragraph because I thought I had done so in the first paragraph of my response.  Apparently this wasn&#8217;t enough!    </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t feel I&#8217;m particularly qualified to teach a master class in how to put specificity in one&#8217;s fiction without being infodumpy.  What I do is what I suggested &#8212; I went to workshops, I joined a writing group, I read and read and read and took note when I saw an author doing something particularly cool and tried to poke at the seams of how they built a world so well I hardly noticed the building.  I hope that my efforts result in being able to build specific worlds without the infodump.</p>
<p>There isn&#8217;t just one way to do this.  There are lot of different ways.  So if you want to learn, you have to work it out yourself or get some excellent writing teachers to help you or get a writing group that can help you.  I can&#8217;t, in a comment, tell you how to do it because there is no one way.  Each story or novel requires its own way.</p>
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		<title>By: Stace</title>
		<link>http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/2008/05/specificity-is-key/comment-page-1/#comment-1615</link>
		<dc:creator>Stace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 00:37:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darkfantasy.org/fantasy/?p=548#comment-1615</guid>
		<description>Thanks, JS, for providing a concrete example that someone trying to avoid this problem can learn from. That&#039;s what I was hoping to inspire with my original comment, not an argument on the thesis of the commentary -- which I agree with, but it is filled with a lot of generalizations  and no specific examples of ways to do it right or ways to do it wrong. 

Ms. Bradford, you said someone who doesn&#039;t know how to do something should learn, and the methods you offer (classes, workshops, analyzing books) are good, but so is asking questions of someone who has more experience. Someone who has just made a claim to know something about the skill you want to learn. But since you ignored that part of my comment in your response, I&#039;m left wondering if you really want to solve the problem, or if you just want to complain?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, JS, for providing a concrete example that someone trying to avoid this problem can learn from. That&#8217;s what I was hoping to inspire with my original comment, not an argument on the thesis of the commentary &#8212; which I agree with, but it is filled with a lot of generalizations  and no specific examples of ways to do it right or ways to do it wrong. </p>
<p>Ms. Bradford, you said someone who doesn&#8217;t know how to do something should learn, and the methods you offer (classes, workshops, analyzing books) are good, but so is asking questions of someone who has more experience. Someone who has just made a claim to know something about the skill you want to learn. But since you ignored that part of my comment in your response, I&#8217;m left wondering if you really want to solve the problem, or if you just want to complain?</p>
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		<title>By: JS Bangs</title>
		<link>http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/2008/05/specificity-is-key/comment-page-1/#comment-1614</link>
		<dc:creator>JS Bangs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 22:51:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darkfantasy.org/fantasy/?p=548#comment-1614</guid>
		<description>For a great example of a work definitely set in medieval Europe but very much &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; McEurope, see KJ Parker&#039;s Engineer Trilogy. (I&#039;ve heard that her other trilogies are also great, though I haven&#039;t read them and so can&#039;t comment.) What makes them distinct from the innumerable McEuropes out there is the specificity and detail, and her encyclopedic knowledge of how medieval tech and society actually worked.

I think that Bradford got this exactly right when she said &quot;it’s so rarely even a real medieval Europe, but land filled with vague ideas about what that setting and time entails.&quot; &lt;i&gt;Actual&lt;/i&gt; fantasy Europe can be fine, but it has to have actual setting, and not just some blurry hand-waving.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For a great example of a work definitely set in medieval Europe but very much <i>not</i> McEurope, see KJ Parker&#8217;s Engineer Trilogy. (I&#8217;ve heard that her other trilogies are also great, though I haven&#8217;t read them and so can&#8217;t comment.) What makes them distinct from the innumerable McEuropes out there is the specificity and detail, and her encyclopedic knowledge of how medieval tech and society actually worked.</p>
<p>I think that Bradford got this exactly right when she said &#8220;it’s so rarely even a real medieval Europe, but land filled with vague ideas about what that setting and time entails.&#8221; <i>Actual</i> fantasy Europe can be fine, but it has to have actual setting, and not just some blurry hand-waving.</p>
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		<title>By: Kynn</title>
		<link>http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/2008/05/specificity-is-key/comment-page-1/#comment-1612</link>
		<dc:creator>Kynn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 18:26:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darkfantasy.org/fantasy/?p=548#comment-1612</guid>
		<description>I quite liked this. Thank you!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I quite liked this. Thank you!</p>
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		<title>By: SilviaMG</title>
		<link>http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/2008/05/specificity-is-key/comment-page-1/#comment-1604</link>
		<dc:creator>SilviaMG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 05:27:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darkfantasy.org/fantasy/?p=548#comment-1604</guid>
		<description>Yep, I think you explain it better than I did, David.

The Princess Bride is similar. It combines stuff from fairy tales, children&#039;s stories, anachronistic comments and lots of footnotes to create its world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yep, I think you explain it better than I did, David.</p>
<p>The Princess Bride is similar. It combines stuff from fairy tales, children&#8217;s stories, anachronistic comments and lots of footnotes to create its world.</p>
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		<title>By: David Moles</title>
		<link>http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/2008/05/specificity-is-key/comment-page-1/#comment-1603</link>
		<dc:creator>David Moles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 04:33:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darkfantasy.org/fantasy/?p=548#comment-1603</guid>
		<description>Beagle&#039;s doing something very clever and postmodern and meta in that book; it&#039;s not set so much in England as in the imaginations of people who&#039;ve spent a lot of time with English folktales and English folk music and Anglo-French chivalric romance. Captain Cully and his band aren&#039;t just emulating Robin Hood, they&#039;re emulating Robin Hood, as captured in 15th-century ballads, as recorded by Francis Child in the late 19th century. And that&#039;s just one of many things you could call anachronisms (the quotes recited by the butterfly are another), except that it&#039;s not meant to be set in an actual time or place -- even a fictional time or place; it&#039;s set in a specific imaginary conceptual space.

Lazy fantatwee writers (thank you Nick M for that excellent word) may claim they&#039;re doing the same thing, but they&#039;re not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Beagle&#8217;s doing something very clever and postmodern and meta in that book; it&#8217;s not set so much in England as in the imaginations of people who&#8217;ve spent a lot of time with English folktales and English folk music and Anglo-French chivalric romance. Captain Cully and his band aren&#8217;t just emulating Robin Hood, they&#8217;re emulating Robin Hood, as captured in 15th-century ballads, as recorded by Francis Child in the late 19th century. And that&#8217;s just one of many things you could call anachronisms (the quotes recited by the butterfly are another), except that it&#8217;s not meant to be set in an actual time or place &#8212; even a fictional time or place; it&#8217;s set in a specific imaginary conceptual space.</p>
<p>Lazy fantatwee writers (thank you Nick M for that excellent word) may claim they&#8217;re doing the same thing, but they&#8217;re not.</p>
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		<title>By: SilviaMG</title>
		<link>http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/2008/05/specificity-is-key/comment-page-1/#comment-1602</link>
		<dc:creator>SilviaMG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 01:17:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darkfantasy.org/fantasy/?p=548#comment-1602</guid>
		<description>&quot;One would be hard put to pin it down to a specific time or place other than “Medieval Europe.”

Since the Last Unicorn includes an encounter with a band of people who emulate Robin Hood and has a character named Molly, I would not think it takes place in say, Hungary. So not everywhere in Europe, but in England.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;One would be hard put to pin it down to a specific time or place other than “Medieval Europe.”</p>
<p>Since the Last Unicorn includes an encounter with a band of people who emulate Robin Hood and has a character named Molly, I would not think it takes place in say, Hungary. So not everywhere in Europe, but in England.</p>
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