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	<title>Comments on: Aryan Elves and Damsels Distressed: a Librarian-Writer&#8217;s View of Bias in American SF</title>
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	<link>http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/2008/08/aryan-elves-and-damsels-distressed-a-librarian-writers-view-of-bias-in-american-sf/#utm_source=rss&amp;utm_medium=rss&amp;utm_campaign=aryan-elves-and-damsels-distressed-a-librarian-writers-view-of-bias-in-american-sf</link>
	<description>From Modern Mythcraft to Magical Surrealism</description>
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		<title>By: oldfeminist</title>
		<link>http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/2008/08/aryan-elves-and-damsels-distressed-a-librarian-writers-view-of-bias-in-american-sf/comment-page-1/#comment-11701</link>
		<dc:creator>oldfeminist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Aug 2009 02:03:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darkfantasy.org/fantasy/?p=820#comment-11701</guid>
		<description>&quot;American SF looks the way it does because it’s what the majority of readers want. America is changing rapidly right now, not fast enough for some, too quickly for others, but at root the market reflects the desires of readers as manifested via their wallets. I am not implying that my fellow SF readers and writers are a pack of racist, sexist, bigoted cultural insensitives, but we are embedded in our culture and cannot help reflecting our personal experiences of it.&quot;

Actually, a lot of us are reading with clothespins on our noses, or sitting on our hands, reading it despite these characteristics.  

A lot of us really specifically *don&#039;t* want the sexist, racist, ableist, classist, and other bigoted themes in the fiction we read, but we have a hard time finding it.

What sells isn&#039;t always what we want.  It&#039;s chosen out of what was selected, based on what sold last time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;American SF looks the way it does because it’s what the majority of readers want. America is changing rapidly right now, not fast enough for some, too quickly for others, but at root the market reflects the desires of readers as manifested via their wallets. I am not implying that my fellow SF readers and writers are a pack of racist, sexist, bigoted cultural insensitives, but we are embedded in our culture and cannot help reflecting our personal experiences of it.&#8221;</p>
<p>Actually, a lot of us are reading with clothespins on our noses, or sitting on our hands, reading it despite these characteristics.  </p>
<p>A lot of us really specifically *don&#8217;t* want the sexist, racist, ableist, classist, and other bigoted themes in the fiction we read, but we have a hard time finding it.</p>
<p>What sells isn&#8217;t always what we want.  It&#8217;s chosen out of what was selected, based on what sold last time.</p>
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		<title>By: Randy Henderson</title>
		<link>http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/2008/08/aryan-elves-and-damsels-distressed-a-librarian-writers-view-of-bias-in-american-sf/comment-page-1/#comment-3753</link>
		<dc:creator>Randy Henderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Aug 2008 12:34:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darkfantasy.org/fantasy/?p=820#comment-3753</guid>
		<description>Actually, let me try that again, as I think my previous post comes off less hypothetical than I intended.

While I think that the &quot;white elves&quot; tend to be based off of the Tuatha De&#039;Danaan (which were pre-Christian Irish gods) or the Germanic elf mythology (or, more to the point, derivatives and knockoffs of Tolkien and other writers&#039; visions based on these roots), there is no reason why in modern fantasy they can&#039;t be of varying races, for the same evolutionary reasons as humans have a variety of skin colors and cultures.  

As I pointed out in the Blog for a Beer post, making your fantasy races of non-McEuropean cultural origins adds rich detail and realism to your created world.

You can even use non-European/Germanic/Scandinavian elf myths, such as the Filipino Diwata, the Spanish Xana, or the Dominican Ciguapa.

Having said that, elves do not always have to be multicultural, or even non-white -- not if you include non-white humans, and optionally also non-elvish fantasy races, including from non-European, non-Scandinavian, and non-Germanic origins.

First, lets say you made the elves non-white and the humans around them white (which isn&#039;t my recommendation, just a hypothetical), you are still, in some small way, diluting the racial issue (I think the reader would still think of them more as “elves” than as, say, “black elves”).

But let&#039;s say instead that you include non-white humans, and white elves. The elves could represent human racial issues and diversity through analogy, and the humans could represent such issues and diversity directly, but the readers wouldn’t feel like they are being hit twice with a polemic on racism in the same story.  You work on their unconscious and conscious racial and cultural expectations and thinking simultaneously.

To even add on top of that racial issues WITHIN the elven society (e.g. black elves deemed a lower caste than white elves or something similar) might be a bit much in the same story. Again, it depends on what kind of story you are trying to tell. 

If you are telling an epic fantasy that focuses primarily on the actions and adventures of human characters, you may not gain a lot from doing so.

However, I think it would be great to explore that in a separate story that focuses on elven culture, for example, or a world where, for whatever reason (interplanetary/ inter-reality transplantation, geographic isolation, etcetera), the majority of humans in the area where the story takes place are of one race (be it McEuropean, Asian, African, or other).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, let me try that again, as I think my previous post comes off less hypothetical than I intended.</p>
<p>While I think that the &#8220;white elves&#8221; tend to be based off of the Tuatha De&#8217;Danaan (which were pre-Christian Irish gods) or the Germanic elf mythology (or, more to the point, derivatives and knockoffs of Tolkien and other writers&#8217; visions based on these roots), there is no reason why in modern fantasy they can&#8217;t be of varying races, for the same evolutionary reasons as humans have a variety of skin colors and cultures.  </p>
<p>As I pointed out in the Blog for a Beer post, making your fantasy races of non-McEuropean cultural origins adds rich detail and realism to your created world.</p>
<p>You can even use non-European/Germanic/Scandinavian elf myths, such as the Filipino Diwata, the Spanish Xana, or the Dominican Ciguapa.</p>
<p>Having said that, elves do not always have to be multicultural, or even non-white &#8212; not if you include non-white humans, and optionally also non-elvish fantasy races, including from non-European, non-Scandinavian, and non-Germanic origins.</p>
<p>First, lets say you made the elves non-white and the humans around them white (which isn&#8217;t my recommendation, just a hypothetical), you are still, in some small way, diluting the racial issue (I think the reader would still think of them more as “elves” than as, say, “black elves”).</p>
<p>But let&#8217;s say instead that you include non-white humans, and white elves. The elves could represent human racial issues and diversity through analogy, and the humans could represent such issues and diversity directly, but the readers wouldn’t feel like they are being hit twice with a polemic on racism in the same story.  You work on their unconscious and conscious racial and cultural expectations and thinking simultaneously.</p>
<p>To even add on top of that racial issues WITHIN the elven society (e.g. black elves deemed a lower caste than white elves or something similar) might be a bit much in the same story. Again, it depends on what kind of story you are trying to tell. </p>
<p>If you are telling an epic fantasy that focuses primarily on the actions and adventures of human characters, you may not gain a lot from doing so.</p>
<p>However, I think it would be great to explore that in a separate story that focuses on elven culture, for example, or a world where, for whatever reason (interplanetary/ inter-reality transplantation, geographic isolation, etcetera), the majority of humans in the area where the story takes place are of one race (be it McEuropean, Asian, African, or other).</p>
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		<title>By: Randy Henderson</title>
		<link>http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/2008/08/aryan-elves-and-damsels-distressed-a-librarian-writers-view-of-bias-in-american-sf/comment-page-1/#comment-3578</link>
		<dc:creator>Randy Henderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Aug 2008 17:53:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darkfantasy.org/fantasy/?p=820#comment-3578</guid>
		<description>I would add that yes, in a typical fantasy story, my elves would be white, but not just because of the cultural roots of the elf mythology.

First, because I think that by making the elves non-white and the humans around them white, you are still, in some small way, diluting the racial issue (I think the reader would still think of them more as &quot;elves&quot; than as, say, &quot;black elves&quot;).

Second, because I would (and am, in the book I&#039;m writing) include non-white humans.  The elves would represent human racial issues and diversity through analogy, and the humans would represent such issues and diversity directly, but the readers wouldn&#039;t feel like they are being hit twice with a polemic on racism in the same story.  

To even add on top of that racial issues WITHIN the elven society (e.g. black elves deemed a lower caste than white elves or something similar) might be a bit much in the same story.  Again, it depends on what kind of story you are trying to tell.  But I think would be great to explore that in a separate story that focuses on elven culture, for example, or a world where, for whatever reason (interplanetary/ inter-reality transplantation, geographic isolation, etcetera), the majority of humans in the area where the story takes place are of one race (be it McEuropean, Asian, African, or other).  It makes complete sense that elves would be multi-racial (as migration of elves around the world would have had similar evolutionary impacts on their bodies as on humans).

Again, not every story needs to include an in-depth exploration of racial issues.  And yes, analogy and metaphor can become an excuse if that is ALL you use WHEN there is no good reason not to include persons of color and cultural diversity in the story.  But it is still a useful and important tool to be used IN ADDITION to actually including meaningful racial diversity in your fiction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would add that yes, in a typical fantasy story, my elves would be white, but not just because of the cultural roots of the elf mythology.</p>
<p>First, because I think that by making the elves non-white and the humans around them white, you are still, in some small way, diluting the racial issue (I think the reader would still think of them more as &#8220;elves&#8221; than as, say, &#8220;black elves&#8221;).</p>
<p>Second, because I would (and am, in the book I&#8217;m writing) include non-white humans.  The elves would represent human racial issues and diversity through analogy, and the humans would represent such issues and diversity directly, but the readers wouldn&#8217;t feel like they are being hit twice with a polemic on racism in the same story.  </p>
<p>To even add on top of that racial issues WITHIN the elven society (e.g. black elves deemed a lower caste than white elves or something similar) might be a bit much in the same story.  Again, it depends on what kind of story you are trying to tell.  But I think would be great to explore that in a separate story that focuses on elven culture, for example, or a world where, for whatever reason (interplanetary/ inter-reality transplantation, geographic isolation, etcetera), the majority of humans in the area where the story takes place are of one race (be it McEuropean, Asian, African, or other).  It makes complete sense that elves would be multi-racial (as migration of elves around the world would have had similar evolutionary impacts on their bodies as on humans).</p>
<p>Again, not every story needs to include an in-depth exploration of racial issues.  And yes, analogy and metaphor can become an excuse if that is ALL you use WHEN there is no good reason not to include persons of color and cultural diversity in the story.  But it is still a useful and important tool to be used IN ADDITION to actually including meaningful racial diversity in your fiction.</p>
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