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	<title>Comments on: Blog For A Beer: Nice Guy Vampires?</title>
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	<link>http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/contests/blog-for-a/blog-for-a-beer-nice-guy-vampires/</link>
	<description>From Modern Mythcraft to Magical Surrealism</description>
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		<title>By: Cheryl Holland</title>
		<link>http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/contests/blog-for-a/blog-for-a-beer-nice-guy-vampires/comment-page-3/#comment-3917</link>
		<dc:creator>Cheryl Holland</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 18:40:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darkfantasy.org/fantasy/?p=850#comment-3917</guid>
		<description>*So here’s what I realized about Non-western vampires. It’s not just that they are rare in fiction, appearing usually as a one-time occurence, but they also tend to not have undergone the same civilizing effect as the European variety. Where are the romantic hero hopping vampires or the conflicted, guilt-ridden Ole-Higue?*

The difference comes in that the western vampire  evolved in a specific set of cultural and literary circumstances, specifically those of 19th century Romantic fiction. At the time it was fashionable for young men with a certain amount of wealth to go on the Grand Tour - basically a road trip of Europe, which was popularised by Lord Byron. 

John Polidori wrote a story called &quot;The Vampyre&quot; which was probably the first to feature the vampire as we know it: pale, aristocratic, not sparkly, and with a tendency to travel a lot. &quot;The Vampyre&quot; was attributed to Byron (who Polidori knew), and there were all sorts of comparisions of the vampire and him. The literati were at the time (as now, I suppose) quite closely connected and so the whole thing snowballed from there.

There&#039;s obviously more to it, but I don&#039;t want to turn this into an essay! There&#039;s a good account of it in Christopher Frayling&#039;s &quot;Vampyres&quot; if anyone&#039;s interested, plus it has some good old vampire stories to boot (pretty much the ones he talks about). :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>*So here’s what I realized about Non-western vampires. It’s not just that they are rare in fiction, appearing usually as a one-time occurence, but they also tend to not have undergone the same civilizing effect as the European variety. Where are the romantic hero hopping vampires or the conflicted, guilt-ridden Ole-Higue?*</p>
<p>The difference comes in that the western vampire  evolved in a specific set of cultural and literary circumstances, specifically those of 19th century Romantic fiction. At the time it was fashionable for young men with a certain amount of wealth to go on the Grand Tour &#8211; basically a road trip of Europe, which was popularised by Lord Byron. </p>
<p>John Polidori wrote a story called &#8220;The Vampyre&#8221; which was probably the first to feature the vampire as we know it: pale, aristocratic, not sparkly, and with a tendency to travel a lot. &#8220;The Vampyre&#8221; was attributed to Byron (who Polidori knew), and there were all sorts of comparisions of the vampire and him. The literati were at the time (as now, I suppose) quite closely connected and so the whole thing snowballed from there.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s obviously more to it, but I don&#8217;t want to turn this into an essay! There&#8217;s a good account of it in Christopher Frayling&#8217;s &#8220;Vampyres&#8221; if anyone&#8217;s interested, plus it has some good old vampire stories to boot (pretty much the ones he talks about). <img src='http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Michael Gordon</title>
		<link>http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/contests/blog-for-a/blog-for-a-beer-nice-guy-vampires/comment-page-3/#comment-3911</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Gordon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 12:56:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darkfantasy.org/fantasy/?p=850#comment-3911</guid>
		<description>Good points Cheryl, I forgot about the Jade court. I believe the Jewish vampire bit is an old joke, but it raises an interesting idea about the effect of the faith of the vampire (rather than the vampire slayer). 

So here&#039;s what I realized about Non-western vampires. It&#039;s not just that they are rare in fiction, appearing usually as a one-time occurence, but they also tend to not have undergone the same civilizing effect as the European variety. Where are the romantic hero hopping vampires or the conflicted, guilt-ridden Ole-Higue? Other than the Kindred of the East RPG I don&#039;t think I&#039;ve ever seen any complexity given to these brothers and sisters in darkness. It&#039;s time for a change, I say. Let&#039;s send all the demons to high school! That should set things straight.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good points Cheryl, I forgot about the Jade court. I believe the Jewish vampire bit is an old joke, but it raises an interesting idea about the effect of the faith of the vampire (rather than the vampire slayer). </p>
<p>So here&#8217;s what I realized about Non-western vampires. It&#8217;s not just that they are rare in fiction, appearing usually as a one-time occurence, but they also tend to not have undergone the same civilizing effect as the European variety. Where are the romantic hero hopping vampires or the conflicted, guilt-ridden Ole-Higue? Other than the Kindred of the East RPG I don&#8217;t think I&#8217;ve ever seen any complexity given to these brothers and sisters in darkness. It&#8217;s time for a change, I say. Let&#8217;s send all the demons to high school! That should set things straight.</p>
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		<title>By: Cheryl Holland</title>
		<link>http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/contests/blog-for-a/blog-for-a-beer-nice-guy-vampires/comment-page-3/#comment-3909</link>
		<dc:creator>Cheryl Holland</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 12:02:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darkfantasy.org/fantasy/?p=850#comment-3909</guid>
		<description>*I lauded Jim Butcher in my first post for incorporating three versions of vampires in his books, but now I’m thinking what we really need is a United Nations for the Undead.*
There is actually a fourth vampire court - the Jade court, which are Oriental. They haven&#039;t turned up yet though, just been mentioned in passing.

*I did come across a short story once that took #3 to an extreme. Vampires invaded American by attacking Jewish communities first and all the silly Jews died because they didn’t have crosses. It kind of sickened me. (Plus, if the vampires were smart, wouldn’t they have attacked Asia first?)*
There&#039;s a scene in The Fearless Vampire Killers (I think) where someone is attacked by a Jewish vampire and gets out their cross, only to be told &quot;You have got the wrong vampire...&quot; and get bitten anyway.

Good debate, I wish I&#039;d caught it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>*I lauded Jim Butcher in my first post for incorporating three versions of vampires in his books, but now I’m thinking what we really need is a United Nations for the Undead.*<br />
There is actually a fourth vampire court &#8211; the Jade court, which are Oriental. They haven&#8217;t turned up yet though, just been mentioned in passing.</p>
<p>*I did come across a short story once that took #3 to an extreme. Vampires invaded American by attacking Jewish communities first and all the silly Jews died because they didn’t have crosses. It kind of sickened me. (Plus, if the vampires were smart, wouldn’t they have attacked Asia first?)*<br />
There&#8217;s a scene in The Fearless Vampire Killers (I think) where someone is attacked by a Jewish vampire and gets out their cross, only to be told &#8220;You have got the wrong vampire&#8230;&#8221; and get bitten anyway.</p>
<p>Good debate, I wish I&#8217;d caught it.</p>
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		<title>By: Fantasy Magazine &#187; The Opposite Of Life By Narrelle M. Harris</title>
		<link>http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/contests/blog-for-a/blog-for-a-beer-nice-guy-vampires/comment-page-3/#comment-3899</link>
		<dc:creator>Fantasy Magazine &#187; The Opposite Of Life By Narrelle M. Harris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2008 19:00:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darkfantasy.org/fantasy/?p=850#comment-3899</guid>
		<description>[...] Twilight series: Breaking Dawn. Tweaking the fundamental nature of vampires isn&#8217;t new (see this rousing discussion from two weeks ago) but the nature of those tweaks is the difference between simplistic Mary Sue [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Twilight series: Breaking Dawn. Tweaking the fundamental nature of vampires isn&#8217;t new (see this rousing discussion from two weeks ago) but the nature of those tweaks is the difference between simplistic Mary Sue [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Rae Bryant</title>
		<link>http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/contests/blog-for-a/blog-for-a-beer-nice-guy-vampires/comment-page-3/#comment-3851</link>
		<dc:creator>Rae Bryant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Aug 2008 17:23:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darkfantasy.org/fantasy/?p=850#comment-3851</guid>
		<description>A big thank you! I must also give some big-time props to Nora, Ide, Randy, Clint, Silvia, and Michael. This was a super fun blog, and highly educational. You all know your vamp-lore! 

Thank you K. Tempest, and everyone else.

All my best,
Rae</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A big thank you! I must also give some big-time props to Nora, Ide, Randy, Clint, Silvia, and Michael. This was a super fun blog, and highly educational. You all know your vamp-lore! </p>
<p>Thank you K. Tempest, and everyone else.</p>
<p>All my best,<br />
Rae</p>
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		<title>By: K. Tempest Bradford</title>
		<link>http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/contests/blog-for-a/blog-for-a-beer-nice-guy-vampires/comment-page-3/#comment-3849</link>
		<dc:creator>K. Tempest Bradford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Aug 2008 15:41:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darkfantasy.org/fantasy/?p=850#comment-3849</guid>
		<description>woo!  crazy week and a miscommunicaton made us late (again, yes, again) awarding our winner for this (last) week&#039;s BfaB.  The conversation was wonderful, wide-ranging, and highly enjoyable.  If I could give you all 410, I would.  But the prize ultimately goes to Rae, because &quot;The Clinton Chronicles: Blood for Hillary&quot; makes me giggle, “she-vamp” taken down by “the man” is SO true, and her other commentary was just as insightful and fun.  But props should also go to Nora, Ide, Randy, Clint, Silvia, and Michael.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>woo!  crazy week and a miscommunicaton made us late (again, yes, again) awarding our winner for this (last) week&#8217;s BfaB.  The conversation was wonderful, wide-ranging, and highly enjoyable.  If I could give you all 410, I would.  But the prize ultimately goes to Rae, because &#8220;The Clinton Chronicles: Blood for Hillary&#8221; makes me giggle, “she-vamp” taken down by “the man” is SO true, and her other commentary was just as insightful and fun.  But props should also go to Nora, Ide, Randy, Clint, Silvia, and Michael.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/contests/blog-for-a/blog-for-a-beer-nice-guy-vampires/comment-page-3/#comment-3755</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Aug 2008 14:54:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darkfantasy.org/fantasy/?p=850#comment-3755</guid>
		<description>Is there going to be a winner this week? I counted 11 participants.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is there going to be a winner this week? I counted 11 participants.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Gordon</title>
		<link>http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/contests/blog-for-a/blog-for-a-beer-nice-guy-vampires/comment-page-3/#comment-3744</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Gordon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 16:54:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darkfantasy.org/fantasy/?p=850#comment-3744</guid>
		<description>&quot;But for example, would you know how to deal with an Ole-Higue?&quot;

Thanks to Wikipedia, I now would. Unless Wikipedia is working with the Guyanese demons to lure us into a false sense of security. 

It is interesting that the grain-counting thing is one of the few similarities to European vampires.

I&#039;m trying to think of non-European vampires in fiction. Chinese (hopping) vampires have become a bit more well known these days, but I&#039;ve come across only a small number of other types. I lauded Jim Butcher in my first post for incorporating three versions of vampires in his books, but now I&#039;m thinking what we really need is a United Nations for the Undead.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;But for example, would you know how to deal with an Ole-Higue?&#8221;</p>
<p>Thanks to Wikipedia, I now would. Unless Wikipedia is working with the Guyanese demons to lure us into a false sense of security. </p>
<p>It is interesting that the grain-counting thing is one of the few similarities to European vampires.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m trying to think of non-European vampires in fiction. Chinese (hopping) vampires have become a bit more well known these days, but I&#8217;ve come across only a small number of other types. I lauded Jim Butcher in my first post for incorporating three versions of vampires in his books, but now I&#8217;m thinking what we really need is a United Nations for the Undead.</p>
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		<title>By: Silvia</title>
		<link>http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/contests/blog-for-a/blog-for-a-beer-nice-guy-vampires/comment-page-3/#comment-3736</link>
		<dc:creator>Silvia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Aug 2008 03:41:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darkfantasy.org/fantasy/?p=850#comment-3736</guid>
		<description>&quot;Completely unscientific aspects like not reflecting in mirrors have been almost universally abandoned.&quot;

It seems to vary a lot. Buffy, with its idea of vampires as a type of demon, clearly takes an unscientific approach. St.Germain has to carry earth from the place where he was born. And there&#039;s, of course, the much more &quot;logical&quot; vampires which could exist in our own world which can be explained as a virus. 

How ever, I would caution about the word &quot;universally.&quot; Many other cultures have vampire myths that, if exploited more often, would often show some very unscientific characteristics. Latin American folklore is rich with &quot;sucking&quot; female creatures that eat babies. It&#039;s just that Westerners are more familiar with Dracula and its kindred (no mirrors, shadows, crucifix). But for example, would you know how to deal with an Ole-Higue? ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Completely unscientific aspects like not reflecting in mirrors have been almost universally abandoned.&#8221;</p>
<p>It seems to vary a lot. Buffy, with its idea of vampires as a type of demon, clearly takes an unscientific approach. St.Germain has to carry earth from the place where he was born. And there&#8217;s, of course, the much more &#8220;logical&#8221; vampires which could exist in our own world which can be explained as a virus. </p>
<p>How ever, I would caution about the word &#8220;universally.&#8221; Many other cultures have vampire myths that, if exploited more often, would often show some very unscientific characteristics. Latin American folklore is rich with &#8220;sucking&#8221; female creatures that eat babies. It&#8217;s just that Westerners are more familiar with Dracula and its kindred (no mirrors, shadows, crucifix). But for example, would you know how to deal with an Ole-Higue? <img src='http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Randy Henderson</title>
		<link>http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/contests/blog-for-a/blog-for-a-beer-nice-guy-vampires/comment-page-3/#comment-3735</link>
		<dc:creator>Randy Henderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Aug 2008 02:39:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darkfantasy.org/fantasy/?p=850#comment-3735</guid>
		<description>Ah, well, writers of quality vampire fiction quickly realized they had to get rid of the non-reflection thing.  I mean, how else are you going to describe a character except find a contrived reason for them to look in a mirror and think about their own appearance?  Hello!  Duh.

As for the science angle, yeah, I mean, just because the real reason for vampirism is a virus, that doesn&#039;t mean fiction about vampires needs to stick with that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, well, writers of quality vampire fiction quickly realized they had to get rid of the non-reflection thing.  I mean, how else are you going to describe a character except find a contrived reason for them to look in a mirror and think about their own appearance?  Hello!  Duh.</p>
<p>As for the science angle, yeah, I mean, just because the real reason for vampirism is a virus, that doesn&#8217;t mean fiction about vampires needs to stick with that.</p>
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