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	<title>Comments on: Victory of Eagles by Naomi Novik</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/2008/08/victory-of-eagles-by-naomi-novik/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/reviews/victory-of-eagles-by-naomi-novik/</link>
	<description>From Modern Mythcraft to Magical Surrealism</description>
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		<title>By: Stuff you should read while you wait &#124; Epiphany 2.0</title>
		<link>http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/reviews/victory-of-eagles-by-naomi-novik/comment-page-1/#comment-18473</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuff you should read while you wait &#124; Epiphany 2.0</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Oct 2011 19:05:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darkfantasy.org/fantasy/?p=810#comment-18473</guid>
		<description>[...] wait. Crucible of Gold, the latest in Naomi Novik&#8217;s Temeraire saga. Some of you already know how much I love these books. In this latest installment &#8212; which I was privileged to read in an earlier form; see, being a [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] wait. Crucible of Gold, the latest in Naomi Novik&#8217;s Temeraire saga. Some of you already know how much I love these books. In this latest installment &#8212; which I was privileged to read in an earlier form; see, being a [...]</p>
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		<title>By: MMWD</title>
		<link>http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/reviews/victory-of-eagles-by-naomi-novik/comment-page-1/#comment-3737</link>
		<dc:creator>MMWD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Aug 2008 04:38:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darkfantasy.org/fantasy/?p=810#comment-3737</guid>
		<description>Oooh, interesting. That explains a lot about why &lt;i&gt;Black Powder War&lt;/i&gt; was so great for those of us who like the close alternate history, where &lt;i&gt;Empire of Ivory&lt;/i&gt; was less pleasing, and why so many other people felt exactly the opposite. I&#039;ll go back to this world with a greater appreciation for what she is doing, now, so thank you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oooh, interesting. That explains a lot about why <i>Black Powder War</i> was so great for those of us who like the close alternate history, where <i>Empire of Ivory</i> was less pleasing, and why so many other people felt exactly the opposite. I&#8217;ll go back to this world with a greater appreciation for what she is doing, now, so thank you.</p>
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		<title>By: Juan</title>
		<link>http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/reviews/victory-of-eagles-by-naomi-novik/comment-page-1/#comment-3521</link>
		<dc:creator>Juan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Aug 2008 07:17:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darkfantasy.org/fantasy/?p=810#comment-3521</guid>
		<description>Hey, if it&#039;s alternate history that can move the frill away from the the Civil War or WWI or WWII (or any war, period) I&#039;m happy. =)

Seriously, how many books can people make on at least one of three premises for divergence to take place?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey, if it&#8217;s alternate history that can move the frill away from the the Civil War or WWI or WWII (or any war, period) I&#8217;m happy. =)</p>
<p>Seriously, how many books can people make on at least one of three premises for divergence to take place?</p>
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		<title>By: Nora</title>
		<link>http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/reviews/victory-of-eagles-by-naomi-novik/comment-page-1/#comment-3481</link>
		<dc:creator>Nora</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Aug 2008 14:18:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darkfantasy.org/fantasy/?p=810#comment-3481</guid>
		<description>Dawn,

My work here is now done.  ::happy sigh::</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dawn,</p>
<p>My work here is now done.  ::happy sigh::</p>
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		<title>By: Nora</title>
		<link>http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/reviews/victory-of-eagles-by-naomi-novik/comment-page-1/#comment-3480</link>
		<dc:creator>Nora</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Aug 2008 14:18:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darkfantasy.org/fantasy/?p=810#comment-3480</guid>
		<description>Niall,

That&#039;s a good point, and I agree with you.  But subgenre classifications within SF have orthodox as well as liberal adherents, and the most orthodox SF fans have always been nitpicky about things like the forehead aliens and the handwaving of consequences past that &quot;point&quot; of logic.  The Mundane SF group? movement? has absolute hissyfits about the idea of FTL travel, for example -- and they have some good points.  If you&#039;re trying to write about the future and yet you patently ignore what you know isn&#039;t possible, are you really writing about the future?  A fanfic writer would say, &quot;Who cares?&quot;  But an orthodox SF fan would care a great deal.

So my review is aimed mostly at the orthodox alternate history fans.  I&#039;ve seen other alternate history that ignores the &quot;rules&quot; as Novik does, but it&#039;s never counted as alternate history, and I figure there&#039;s a reason for that.  (Great example is Wen Spencer&#039;s &lt;strong&gt;A Brother&#039;s Price&lt;/strong&gt;, also a kind of alternate history where the divergence is evolutionary -- for inexplicable reasons, in her world the gender ratio is 1 male for about 30 females.  So men are sheltered, perfumed chattel, and her story is a Regency romance.  Cracktastic and great fun, though it&#039;s never clear if this is Earth.  If it is, this is another Novikian AH.)  

-- Hmm.  I wonder if there&#039;s something in the fact that the only writers I see taking the liberal approach to alternate history are female, and the writers who seem to take the orthodox approach are male...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Niall,</p>
<p>That&#8217;s a good point, and I agree with you.  But subgenre classifications within SF have orthodox as well as liberal adherents, and the most orthodox SF fans have always been nitpicky about things like the forehead aliens and the handwaving of consequences past that &#8220;point&#8221; of logic.  The Mundane SF group? movement? has absolute hissyfits about the idea of FTL travel, for example &#8212; and they have some good points.  If you&#8217;re trying to write about the future and yet you patently ignore what you know isn&#8217;t possible, are you really writing about the future?  A fanfic writer would say, &#8220;Who cares?&#8221;  But an orthodox SF fan would care a great deal.</p>
<p>So my review is aimed mostly at the orthodox alternate history fans.  I&#8217;ve seen other alternate history that ignores the &#8220;rules&#8221; as Novik does, but it&#8217;s never counted as alternate history, and I figure there&#8217;s a reason for that.  (Great example is Wen Spencer&#8217;s <strong>A Brother&#8217;s Price</strong>, also a kind of alternate history where the divergence is evolutionary &#8212; for inexplicable reasons, in her world the gender ratio is 1 male for about 30 females.  So men are sheltered, perfumed chattel, and her story is a Regency romance.  Cracktastic and great fun, though it&#8217;s never clear if this is Earth.  If it is, this is another Novikian AH.)  </p>
<p>&#8211; Hmm.  I wonder if there&#8217;s something in the fact that the only writers I see taking the liberal approach to alternate history are female, and the writers who seem to take the orthodox approach are male&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Dawn</title>
		<link>http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/reviews/victory-of-eagles-by-naomi-novik/comment-page-1/#comment-3435</link>
		<dc:creator>Dawn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Aug 2008 12:50:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darkfantasy.org/fantasy/?p=810#comment-3435</guid>
		<description>I admit I hadn&#039;t been all too keen on reading this series before (because of the ships and battles...not my sort of thing). Your review has changed my mind though. I&#039;m going out to get the first book now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I admit I hadn&#8217;t been all too keen on reading this series before (because of the ships and battles&#8230;not my sort of thing). Your review has changed my mind though. I&#8217;m going out to get the first book now.</p>
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		<title>By: Niall</title>
		<link>http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/reviews/victory-of-eagles-by-naomi-novik/comment-page-1/#comment-3432</link>
		<dc:creator>Niall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Aug 2008 10:59:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darkfantasy.org/fantasy/?p=810#comment-3432</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I was being facetious about needing new terminology&lt;/i&gt;

Ah. Oops. Sorry!

My &quot;that said&quot; is that I&#039;m afraid I still don&#039;t see this sort of imaginative acceptance as something unique to fanfic, although I can accept it may be a more dominant force there. Is the sort of disbelief-suspension I need to engage in to accept Novik&#039;s world &lt;i&gt;really&lt;/i&gt; different to the sort I need to engage in to accept the human-like-but-not-actually-human citizens of Iain Bank&#039;s Culture? Or, for that matter, the many bumpy foreheads of &lt;i&gt;Star Trek&lt;/i&gt;? It doesn&#039;t feel very different. To my mind, an awful lot of worldbuilding is about the logical consequences of something &lt;i&gt;to a point&lt;/i&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I was being facetious about needing new terminology</i></p>
<p>Ah. Oops. Sorry!</p>
<p>My &#8220;that said&#8221; is that I&#8217;m afraid I still don&#8217;t see this sort of imaginative acceptance as something unique to fanfic, although I can accept it may be a more dominant force there. Is the sort of disbelief-suspension I need to engage in to accept Novik&#8217;s world <i>really</i> different to the sort I need to engage in to accept the human-like-but-not-actually-human citizens of Iain Bank&#8217;s Culture? Or, for that matter, the many bumpy foreheads of <i>Star Trek</i>? It doesn&#8217;t feel very different. To my mind, an awful lot of worldbuilding is about the logical consequences of something <i>to a point</i>.</p>
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		<title>By: Nora</title>
		<link>http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/reviews/victory-of-eagles-by-naomi-novik/comment-page-1/#comment-3367</link>
		<dc:creator>Nora</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Aug 2008 18:57:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darkfantasy.org/fantasy/?p=810#comment-3367</guid>
		<description>Niall,

I was being facetious about needing new terminology; I think plain vanilla fantasy suits it just fine.  =)

That said, I&#039;m a great fan of worldbuilding in speculative fiction, and I can&#039;t ignore the fact that a point of divergence which occurred millions of years ago &lt;em&gt;could not possibly&lt;/em&gt; result in a world as similar to or own as Novik has depicted.  She handwaves the very obvious changes that our planet would undergo if we weren&#039;t the sole sentient species on it.  Imagine how every species would&#039;ve evolved if dragons, rather than big cats, etc., were the apex predator of the planet (and in the Novikverse it&#039;s only the &quot;domesticated&quot; dragons that have an aversion to eating people; the ferals don&#039;t do it because humans aren&#039;t enough meat to be worth the effort, but they clearly don&#039;t have a problem with the idea of it).  Would we have eyes in the front of our heads, or higher up on top?  Would we have developed aerial weapons sooner?  Would we have bothered with animal husbandry if owning a herd meant attracting hungry dragons?  In hunting cultures, wouldn&#039;t a mark of bravery/manhood have meant killing a dragon -- and wouldn&#039;t this have triggered reprisals as the dragons probably wouldn&#039;t take kindly to this?  Somewhere in the history of Novik&#039;s world, there should be dragon-human wars.  There should be whole swaths of the planet where either dragons, or humans, have been wiped out.  We should have religions which &lt;em&gt;worship&lt;/em&gt; dragons, and those which paint dragons as the devil, and so on.

This is why I hesitate to apply &quot;alternate history&quot; to this -- because most alternate history acknowledges the dangers in putting the point of divergence too far back (and avoids doing so, because of the danger).  But then, ignoring this kind of problem is also one of the common characteristics of AU fanfiction.  Sure, it would be better worldbuilding if she took the presence of dragons to its logical conclusions... but would it be half as much fun?  =)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Niall,</p>
<p>I was being facetious about needing new terminology; I think plain vanilla fantasy suits it just fine.  =)</p>
<p>That said, I&#8217;m a great fan of worldbuilding in speculative fiction, and I can&#8217;t ignore the fact that a point of divergence which occurred millions of years ago <em>could not possibly</em> result in a world as similar to or own as Novik has depicted.  She handwaves the very obvious changes that our planet would undergo if we weren&#8217;t the sole sentient species on it.  Imagine how every species would&#8217;ve evolved if dragons, rather than big cats, etc., were the apex predator of the planet (and in the Novikverse it&#8217;s only the &#8220;domesticated&#8221; dragons that have an aversion to eating people; the ferals don&#8217;t do it because humans aren&#8217;t enough meat to be worth the effort, but they clearly don&#8217;t have a problem with the idea of it).  Would we have eyes in the front of our heads, or higher up on top?  Would we have developed aerial weapons sooner?  Would we have bothered with animal husbandry if owning a herd meant attracting hungry dragons?  In hunting cultures, wouldn&#8217;t a mark of bravery/manhood have meant killing a dragon &#8212; and wouldn&#8217;t this have triggered reprisals as the dragons probably wouldn&#8217;t take kindly to this?  Somewhere in the history of Novik&#8217;s world, there should be dragon-human wars.  There should be whole swaths of the planet where either dragons, or humans, have been wiped out.  We should have religions which <em>worship</em> dragons, and those which paint dragons as the devil, and so on.</p>
<p>This is why I hesitate to apply &#8220;alternate history&#8221; to this &#8212; because most alternate history acknowledges the dangers in putting the point of divergence too far back (and avoids doing so, because of the danger).  But then, ignoring this kind of problem is also one of the common characteristics of AU fanfiction.  Sure, it would be better worldbuilding if she took the presence of dragons to its logical conclusions&#8230; but would it be half as much fun?  =)</p>
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		<title>By: Niall</title>
		<link>http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/reviews/victory-of-eagles-by-naomi-novik/comment-page-1/#comment-3346</link>
		<dc:creator>Niall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Aug 2008 14:09:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darkfantasy.org/fantasy/?p=810#comment-3346</guid>
		<description>Good review, which reminds me that I must get caught up on this series ... but I&#039;m not convinced that we need a new terminology to account for the Temeraire books, and I love new terminology as much as anyone. From your description of this book, its inversion of our expectations of the period offers precisely &quot;the surrealist thrill of seeing [our] own world depicted through a glass [...] darkly&quot;. The difference (generically speaking) between it and a Harry Turtledove novel seems to be that the point of divergence is millions of years ago, with the evolution of dragons, rather than just before the start of the story. Long-ago points of divergence are perhaps relatively rare, but by no means unheard of.

That said, I do agree with you that practically speaking, the most useful box for the series is probably fantasy (along with other historical fantasies such as &lt;i&gt;Jonathan Strange &amp; Mr Norrell&lt;/i&gt; and &lt;i&gt;the Light Ages&lt;/i&gt;).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good review, which reminds me that I must get caught up on this series &#8230; but I&#8217;m not convinced that we need a new terminology to account for the Temeraire books, and I love new terminology as much as anyone. From your description of this book, its inversion of our expectations of the period offers precisely &#8220;the surrealist thrill of seeing [our] own world depicted through a glass [...] darkly&#8221;. The difference (generically speaking) between it and a Harry Turtledove novel seems to be that the point of divergence is millions of years ago, with the evolution of dragons, rather than just before the start of the story. Long-ago points of divergence are perhaps relatively rare, but by no means unheard of.</p>
<p>That said, I do agree with you that practically speaking, the most useful box for the series is probably fantasy (along with other historical fantasies such as <i>Jonathan Strange &amp; Mr Norrell</i> and <i>the Light Ages</i>).</p>
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		<title>By: Justin</title>
		<link>http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/reviews/victory-of-eagles-by-naomi-novik/comment-page-1/#comment-3306</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Aug 2008 05:14:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darkfantasy.org/fantasy/?p=810#comment-3306</guid>
		<description>A great perspective, and dead on critique. I picked up &quot;His Majesty&#039;s Dragon&quot;, and enjoyed the effervescent plot and images Novik cranked out. I have remained loyal to the series though, because she has folded in a great commentary on conscience, equality, and humanity. In the great tradition of science fiction or fantasy, she hits a serious theme and makes it fun to think about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A great perspective, and dead on critique. I picked up &#8220;His Majesty&#8217;s Dragon&#8221;, and enjoyed the effervescent plot and images Novik cranked out. I have remained loyal to the series though, because she has folded in a great commentary on conscience, equality, and humanity. In the great tradition of science fiction or fantasy, she hits a serious theme and makes it fun to think about.</p>
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