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	<title>Comments on: Blog For A Beer: Culture Clash</title>
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	<link>http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/contests/blog-for-a/blog-for-a-beer-culture-clash/</link>
	<description>From Modern Mythcraft to Magical Surrealism</description>
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		<title>By: Juan</title>
		<link>http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/contests/blog-for-a/blog-for-a-beer-culture-clash/comment-page-1/#comment-8547</link>
		<dc:creator>Juan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 20:27:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darkfantasy.org/fantasy/?p=1108#comment-8547</guid>
		<description>Wow, there&#039;s a lot I can think of--off the top of my head though comes things like Resident Evil 5, World of Warcraft, the book of Mormon (can&#039;t remember the proper name it goes by), Stargate franchise so obviously, the Indiana Jones franchise, Aztec Rex, the recent Mummy movies and the list can go on.  

And somehow, I think the constant re-doing of numerous Asian films with a white cast should be tossed in there as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, there&#8217;s a lot I can think of&#8211;off the top of my head though comes things like Resident Evil 5, World of Warcraft, the book of Mormon (can&#8217;t remember the proper name it goes by), Stargate franchise so obviously, the Indiana Jones franchise, Aztec Rex, the recent Mummy movies and the list can go on.  </p>
<p>And somehow, I think the constant re-doing of numerous Asian films with a white cast should be tossed in there as well.</p>
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		<title>By: gordsellar</title>
		<link>http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/contests/blog-for-a/blog-for-a-beer-culture-clash/comment-page-1/#comment-8491</link>
		<dc:creator>gordsellar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Nov 2008 08:23:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darkfantasy.org/fantasy/?p=1108#comment-8491</guid>
		<description>er, late for the party, that is...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>er, late for the party, that is&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: gordsellar</title>
		<link>http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/contests/blog-for-a/blog-for-a-beer-culture-clash/comment-page-1/#comment-8490</link>
		<dc:creator>gordsellar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Nov 2008 08:23:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darkfantasy.org/fantasy/?p=1108#comment-8490</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m late for the part, but...

Well, as someone living in Asia, I&#039;d like to note that while I agree with Nora about the difference between &quot;amusing, relatively benign&quot; imitation of the kind Clint described and really offensive denigration, believe me, the latter kind of thing goes on too. Lots of other societies than the West are just as gleefully ignorant about depicting other cultures or societies. While the West, especially the US, has a kind of &quot;special status&quot; in terms of this -- it just produces so much entertainment media and so on -- he US isn&#039;t even particularly the most aggressive in disrespectfully making a hash of others&#039; cultures.  

(And yes, to some degree ignorance gets used as a defense, but... well, in this era, ignorance is often willful, isn&#039;t it? I mean... Internet. Cheap air travel. Research. Duh.)

Here in Korea, it&#039;s a rare moment to find non-Koreans in a movie or on TV who aren&#039;t villainous in some way. (Slowly less so, but still...) And if there is a Westerner who&#039;s nice, it&#039;s usually one or two decent folk surrounded by much more powerful bad guys. (A fantastical example, and this is of a movie I actually really like, is &lt;i&gt;The Host&lt;/i&gt;. The white presence in that movie is just bursting with anti-American sentiment, anxiety about Korean subordinate status to America, and so on. There are three major white characters, only one of whom isn&#039;t menacing.) 

(On TV, it&#039;s even more stark -- Western women are sex kittens all, waiting for any man to pounce and woo her, while Western men are menacing rapists-in-waiting who are obsessed with bedding Korean women. Though that&#039;s true of SOME Westerners I&#039;ve met here, that&#039;s not more true in any greater proportion than it is among Korean guys. And newspapers run the most horrifying things here... caricatures of modern black Americans with bones in their noses in Flintstones garb. Without comment. Or outcry. Or recognition that it would offend anyone.)

Don&#039;t get me wrong: I&#039;m way beyond ranting now, or resenting it. One gets around to, uh, sort of accepting it, or accepting at least that the media is stupider than enough of the people one meets in person. Accepting that ranting about it on the internet does no good, anyway. (I try get my students to be aware of it in their own creative projects, though, or in classroom discussions.) 

But as much as one resigns oneself to it -- and I don&#039;t know that resignation is a good thing -- this kind of thing does impact politics, sometimes in wrongheaded ways, and for example can persuade people to denigrate foreign countries to their own detriment at times, even when they rarely meet people of another race. This is the thing I&#039;ve been seeing more and more, as I experience what it&#039;s like to be a minority, albeit a privileged minority in a number of ways: the people who sneer sideways at you for being different are losing out in a big way. They&#039;re screwing themselves out of someone who would happily and eagerly work with them, cooperate, etc. 

Things are different when you&#039;re not a *privileged* minority, of course. I&#039;m aware of this. If white people think THEY have it bad in the media here, they should pay a little more attention to how Southeast Asians (or blacks, for that matter) are portrayed in the media in Korea. 

Not to rant. I think I&#039;m trying to say that while it&#039;s easy to ignore that other societies have media just as bigoted, or moreso -- and it certainly helps focus on the media most readers are likely to encounter -- it&#039;s probably also fanciful. It&#039;s worth noting that to the degree the inherent vileness an stupidity of this kind of thing is at least debatable amogn us, we&#039;ve achieved something. Not everything we need to achieve, and not that our answers are always easily reached, but we have achieved something!

Because these kinds of discussions don&#039;t even tend to start up at all, where I live. You see blackface minstrel performance on TV, or a show depicting young white men as rapists hunting innocent Korean women, say, and declare, &quot;That&#039;s offensive!&quot; and even some smart, educated people just go, &quot;Huh?&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m late for the part, but&#8230;</p>
<p>Well, as someone living in Asia, I&#8217;d like to note that while I agree with Nora about the difference between &#8220;amusing, relatively benign&#8221; imitation of the kind Clint described and really offensive denigration, believe me, the latter kind of thing goes on too. Lots of other societies than the West are just as gleefully ignorant about depicting other cultures or societies. While the West, especially the US, has a kind of &#8220;special status&#8221; in terms of this &#8212; it just produces so much entertainment media and so on &#8212; he US isn&#8217;t even particularly the most aggressive in disrespectfully making a hash of others&#8217; cultures.  </p>
<p>(And yes, to some degree ignorance gets used as a defense, but&#8230; well, in this era, ignorance is often willful, isn&#8217;t it? I mean&#8230; Internet. Cheap air travel. Research. Duh.)</p>
<p>Here in Korea, it&#8217;s a rare moment to find non-Koreans in a movie or on TV who aren&#8217;t villainous in some way. (Slowly less so, but still&#8230;) And if there is a Westerner who&#8217;s nice, it&#8217;s usually one or two decent folk surrounded by much more powerful bad guys. (A fantastical example, and this is of a movie I actually really like, is <i>The Host</i>. The white presence in that movie is just bursting with anti-American sentiment, anxiety about Korean subordinate status to America, and so on. There are three major white characters, only one of whom isn&#8217;t menacing.) </p>
<p>(On TV, it&#8217;s even more stark &#8212; Western women are sex kittens all, waiting for any man to pounce and woo her, while Western men are menacing rapists-in-waiting who are obsessed with bedding Korean women. Though that&#8217;s true of SOME Westerners I&#8217;ve met here, that&#8217;s not more true in any greater proportion than it is among Korean guys. And newspapers run the most horrifying things here&#8230; caricatures of modern black Americans with bones in their noses in Flintstones garb. Without comment. Or outcry. Or recognition that it would offend anyone.)</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t get me wrong: I&#8217;m way beyond ranting now, or resenting it. One gets around to, uh, sort of accepting it, or accepting at least that the media is stupider than enough of the people one meets in person. Accepting that ranting about it on the internet does no good, anyway. (I try get my students to be aware of it in their own creative projects, though, or in classroom discussions.) </p>
<p>But as much as one resigns oneself to it &#8212; and I don&#8217;t know that resignation is a good thing &#8212; this kind of thing does impact politics, sometimes in wrongheaded ways, and for example can persuade people to denigrate foreign countries to their own detriment at times, even when they rarely meet people of another race. This is the thing I&#8217;ve been seeing more and more, as I experience what it&#8217;s like to be a minority, albeit a privileged minority in a number of ways: the people who sneer sideways at you for being different are losing out in a big way. They&#8217;re screwing themselves out of someone who would happily and eagerly work with them, cooperate, etc. </p>
<p>Things are different when you&#8217;re not a *privileged* minority, of course. I&#8217;m aware of this. If white people think THEY have it bad in the media here, they should pay a little more attention to how Southeast Asians (or blacks, for that matter) are portrayed in the media in Korea. </p>
<p>Not to rant. I think I&#8217;m trying to say that while it&#8217;s easy to ignore that other societies have media just as bigoted, or moreso &#8212; and it certainly helps focus on the media most readers are likely to encounter &#8212; it&#8217;s probably also fanciful. It&#8217;s worth noting that to the degree the inherent vileness an stupidity of this kind of thing is at least debatable amogn us, we&#8217;ve achieved something. Not everything we need to achieve, and not that our answers are always easily reached, but we have achieved something!</p>
<p>Because these kinds of discussions don&#8217;t even tend to start up at all, where I live. You see blackface minstrel performance on TV, or a show depicting young white men as rapists hunting innocent Korean women, say, and declare, &#8220;That&#8217;s offensive!&#8221; and even some smart, educated people just go, &#8220;Huh?&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Janet Chui</title>
		<link>http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/contests/blog-for-a/blog-for-a-beer-culture-clash/comment-page-1/#comment-8476</link>
		<dc:creator>Janet Chui</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Nov 2008 04:24:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darkfantasy.org/fantasy/?p=1108#comment-8476</guid>
		<description>The Chronicles of Narnia will always take top spot on my list--I remember reading the series in college (my first time encountering the original work) and having my heart torn out how this oft-celebrated classic read like nothing but an attack on Eastern culture and faith. (I went online to look up the titles of the specific Narnia books, but came up with better: A discussion on Lewis&#039; moralizing at http://www.physicsroom.org.nz/log/archive/2/arab/ ).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Chronicles of Narnia will always take top spot on my list&#8211;I remember reading the series in college (my first time encountering the original work) and having my heart torn out how this oft-celebrated classic read like nothing but an attack on Eastern culture and faith. (I went online to look up the titles of the specific Narnia books, but came up with better: A discussion on Lewis&#8217; moralizing at <a href="http://www.physicsroom.org.nz/log/archive/2/arab/" rel="nofollow">http://www.physicsroom.org.nz/log/archive/2/arab/</a> ).</p>
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		<title>By: Edward Brock</title>
		<link>http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/contests/blog-for-a/blog-for-a-beer-culture-clash/comment-page-1/#comment-8475</link>
		<dc:creator>Edward Brock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Nov 2008 01:51:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darkfantasy.org/fantasy/?p=1108#comment-8475</guid>
		<description>I think the biggest offender is probably the religious (not all, of course, but a great many of them for sure).

Whether it be in their &quot;sacred texts&quot; or various books, films, radio &amp; television ministries, there is a blatant &amp; unapologetic misrepresentation of any culture that is in opposition to their particular beliefs.

For centuries religious organizations have condemned any group that does not follow their dogma. Let&#039;s use Christians as an example (though most well-known religions fall under the same umbrella of misrepresentation).

Christians have long associated those of different beliefs as Satanists, even though many (such as most modern Pagans/Wiccans) do not even believe in the devil. 

Pick up any book written by an evangelical writer &amp; you will, often, find a blanket assault on other &quot;faiths&quot;. Rarely do these arguments distinguish between the different faiths. Little thought is given to their origins/history except in regards to its opposition to the Christian faith. They will often make reference to their pagan &quot;roots&quot;, but only as a means of condemnation.

It doesn&#039;t seem to matter that various ancient beliefs did not always share a common history. Whether it was the Greeks, the Romans, Egyptians or Norse. Or (in a more modern sense) whether it&#039;s Wiccans, Mormons, Muslims or Pagans, to the evangelicals they are simply &quot;of Satan&quot;.

I have read many books &amp; attended many churches during my life &amp; have found few who speak/write of other beliefs in a fair manner. I know that these evanglists are pushing an agenda, but their flock suffers as a result. They fail to research these cultures for themselves &amp; have been conditioned to overlook/ignore their uniqueness. Thus the cycle of misrepresentation is passed on to each generation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the biggest offender is probably the religious (not all, of course, but a great many of them for sure).</p>
<p>Whether it be in their &#8220;sacred texts&#8221; or various books, films, radio &amp; television ministries, there is a blatant &amp; unapologetic misrepresentation of any culture that is in opposition to their particular beliefs.</p>
<p>For centuries religious organizations have condemned any group that does not follow their dogma. Let&#8217;s use Christians as an example (though most well-known religions fall under the same umbrella of misrepresentation).</p>
<p>Christians have long associated those of different beliefs as Satanists, even though many (such as most modern Pagans/Wiccans) do not even believe in the devil. </p>
<p>Pick up any book written by an evangelical writer &amp; you will, often, find a blanket assault on other &#8220;faiths&#8221;. Rarely do these arguments distinguish between the different faiths. Little thought is given to their origins/history except in regards to its opposition to the Christian faith. They will often make reference to their pagan &#8220;roots&#8221;, but only as a means of condemnation.</p>
<p>It doesn&#8217;t seem to matter that various ancient beliefs did not always share a common history. Whether it was the Greeks, the Romans, Egyptians or Norse. Or (in a more modern sense) whether it&#8217;s Wiccans, Mormons, Muslims or Pagans, to the evangelicals they are simply &#8220;of Satan&#8221;.</p>
<p>I have read many books &amp; attended many churches during my life &amp; have found few who speak/write of other beliefs in a fair manner. I know that these evanglists are pushing an agenda, but their flock suffers as a result. They fail to research these cultures for themselves &amp; have been conditioned to overlook/ignore their uniqueness. Thus the cycle of misrepresentation is passed on to each generation.</p>
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		<title>By: Pat Logan</title>
		<link>http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/contests/blog-for-a/blog-for-a-beer-culture-clash/comment-page-1/#comment-8468</link>
		<dc:creator>Pat Logan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Nov 2008 22:57:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darkfantasy.org/fantasy/?p=1108#comment-8468</guid>
		<description>300, where the Persian army had Ra from Stargate as Xerxes and hardly any actual, you know, Persians in it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>300, where the Persian army had Ra from Stargate as Xerxes and hardly any actual, you know, Persians in it.</p>
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		<title>By: Clint Harris</title>
		<link>http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/contests/blog-for-a/blog-for-a-beer-culture-clash/comment-page-1/#comment-8466</link>
		<dc:creator>Clint Harris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Nov 2008 22:47:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darkfantasy.org/fantasy/?p=1108#comment-8466</guid>
		<description>AD @ 10, yeah, no doubt, considering the Vikings, the scourge of Europe, got their butts handed to them when they came across the Atlantic.

I meant to say something on Silvia&#039;s original essay this B4aBeer cites, so I might as well say it here.  The Cabeza de Baca work is neat and all, but depending on the translation/interpretation it gets sorta well, stupid.  The Cyclone Covey version I read essentially tries to depict the first European explorations into the interior of North America.  the original account was believed to be more Central America.  The Covey text can be interpreted to impose an earlier European claim on North America.  As though it validates cultures of the Southwest US through European influence and exploration.  

It irritates the hell out of me.  First, there are no facts in the accounts to support these arguments.  Covey basically moves the original path of Cabeza de Baca&#039;s journey a couple parallels to the North.  Not to mention Cabeza de Baca was a &quot;captive&quot; the entire time and likely made up most of his account to save his neck after the Spanish found him on the West Coast-- 900 miles away from where he was supposed to be.  His account is like Scheherazade&#039;s tales used to postpone a death sentence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>AD @ 10, yeah, no doubt, considering the Vikings, the scourge of Europe, got their butts handed to them when they came across the Atlantic.</p>
<p>I meant to say something on Silvia&#8217;s original essay this B4aBeer cites, so I might as well say it here.  The Cabeza de Baca work is neat and all, but depending on the translation/interpretation it gets sorta well, stupid.  The Cyclone Covey version I read essentially tries to depict the first European explorations into the interior of North America.  the original account was believed to be more Central America.  The Covey text can be interpreted to impose an earlier European claim on North America.  As though it validates cultures of the Southwest US through European influence and exploration.  </p>
<p>It irritates the hell out of me.  First, there are no facts in the accounts to support these arguments.  Covey basically moves the original path of Cabeza de Baca&#8217;s journey a couple parallels to the North.  Not to mention Cabeza de Baca was a &#8220;captive&#8221; the entire time and likely made up most of his account to save his neck after the Spanish found him on the West Coast&#8211; 900 miles away from where he was supposed to be.  His account is like Scheherazade&#8217;s tales used to postpone a death sentence.</p>
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		<title>By: AD</title>
		<link>http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/contests/blog-for-a/blog-for-a-beer-culture-clash/comment-page-1/#comment-8464</link>
		<dc:creator>AD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Nov 2008 20:34:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darkfantasy.org/fantasy/?p=1108#comment-8464</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s Pathfinder were a Viking saves helpless Native Americans from other Vikings. Because they were all flower loving people incapable of fighting for themselves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s Pathfinder were a Viking saves helpless Native Americans from other Vikings. Because they were all flower loving people incapable of fighting for themselves.</p>
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		<title>By: Randy Henderson</title>
		<link>http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/contests/blog-for-a/blog-for-a-beer-culture-clash/comment-page-1/#comment-8463</link>
		<dc:creator>Randy Henderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Nov 2008 20:25:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darkfantasy.org/fantasy/?p=1108#comment-8463</guid>
		<description>And last but not least, I vaguely remembered a film called &quot;Q,&quot; so looked it up, and yep, it&#039;s as bad as I remember.  Mad Aztec priest sacrificing people in New York, raising the Aztec serpent god Quetzalcoatl out of hibernation to terrorize the city.  Just dripping with cultural sensitivity, this one is:

http://www.badmovies.org/movies/q/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And last but not least, I vaguely remembered a film called &#8220;Q,&#8221; so looked it up, and yep, it&#8217;s as bad as I remember.  Mad Aztec priest sacrificing people in New York, raising the Aztec serpent god Quetzalcoatl out of hibernation to terrorize the city.  Just dripping with cultural sensitivity, this one is:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.badmovies.org/movies/q/" rel="nofollow">http://www.badmovies.org/movies/q/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Randy Henderson</title>
		<link>http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/contests/blog-for-a/blog-for-a-beer-culture-clash/comment-page-1/#comment-8462</link>
		<dc:creator>Randy Henderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Nov 2008 20:02:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darkfantasy.org/fantasy/?p=1108#comment-8462</guid>
		<description>And let us not forget the Book of Mormon, which claims that Native Americans are brown because they are marked for their sin, they are descended from the Jew Lehi who migrated from Israel along with the white Nephites, but these &quot;bad&quot; Lamanites killed all the &quot;good&quot; white Nephites who came with them.  Of course, there is no archeological, biological, or agricultural evidence accepted by any impartial scientist to support the described civilizations or this alternate history of the Americas, and in fact the book displays ignorance of the real cultures that had existed, and the evidence that they are descended from Asians who migrated here over the Bering Land Bridge.

The fact that it is treated as religious revelation doesn&#039;t make it any less fantasy fiction, it just makes it dangerous fantasy fiction, and badly researched and poorly conceived alternate history fiction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And let us not forget the Book of Mormon, which claims that Native Americans are brown because they are marked for their sin, they are descended from the Jew Lehi who migrated from Israel along with the white Nephites, but these &#8220;bad&#8221; Lamanites killed all the &#8220;good&#8221; white Nephites who came with them.  Of course, there is no archeological, biological, or agricultural evidence accepted by any impartial scientist to support the described civilizations or this alternate history of the Americas, and in fact the book displays ignorance of the real cultures that had existed, and the evidence that they are descended from Asians who migrated here over the Bering Land Bridge.</p>
<p>The fact that it is treated as religious revelation doesn&#8217;t make it any less fantasy fiction, it just makes it dangerous fantasy fiction, and badly researched and poorly conceived alternate history fiction.</p>
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